CLI Database Discussions

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SYSTEM
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#331 Post by SYSTEM » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:33 pm

vevy wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:22 pm
I think you took "something" as "You can't be convinced with anything!" I meant: Is there "something" that can change your mind that I can then act towards?" The question was not rhetorical! :)
I did, indeed. Thanks for the clarification.
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vevy
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#332 Post by vevy » Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:38 pm

SYSTEM wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:33 pm
vevy wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:22 pm
I think you took "something" as "You can't be convinced with anything!" I meant: Is there "something" that can change your mind that I can then act towards?" The question was not rhetorical! :)
I did, indeed. Thanks for the clarification.
Cheers!
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Andrew Lee
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#333 Post by Andrew Lee » Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:39 pm

SYSTEM wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:53 pm
You realize you have been literally the only one pushing for an extremely high number of features, filters and stuff? The reason you aren't convincing Andrew is because pretty much no one here considers all these features to be worth the effort. I don't find Andrew an exceptionally stubborn individual.
Thanks for putting it so succinctly. Thank you, thank you, thank you! :D
vevy wrote:
Sat Oct 31, 2020 11:22 pm
I didn't mean that in a mean way at all. I meant: can you visualize a scenario in your mind where the sequence of events will lead you to say: "Hmm, perhaps this filters idea is worth doing after all."?
This one is easy. When a couple of seniors around here start to nag me to do something, I know I have to start taking it seriously. When the mods start to PM me, then I _know_ I have to get my ass off the chair! :o

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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#334 Post by Andrew Lee » Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:52 pm

I think we can agree there is general interest to see the CLI site go live.

I have been holding off working on the site because I just don't see a clear path forward. The database content is 99% vevy's, and if he says let's pull the plug, I am obliged to remove all his content.

I am suggesting:

- Fix up some glaring bugs and flip the "live" switch. Wait for data on real user interest and feedback. Don't try to make it perfect.

- No more new features originating from some "grand vision". Let the site EVOLVE from user feedback. @vevy: the day SYSTEM/Midas/webfork/billion bloody _PM_ me to push me to implement your vision of filters and use cases, is the day we talk :lol:

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vevy
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#335 Post by vevy » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm

Andrew Lee wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:39 pm
This one is easy. When a couple of seniors around here start to nag me to do something, I know I have to start taking it seriously. When the mods start to PM me, then I _know_ I have to get my ass off the chair! :o
the day SYSTEM/Midas/webfork/billion bloody _PM_ me to push me to implement your vision of filters and use cases, is the day we talk :lol:
Man, you keep moving the goal posts!

OK, guys. You know what to do! :P 10 messages a day. Show no mercy!

Andrew Lee wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:52 pm
I have been holding off working on the site because I just don't see a clear path forward. The database content is 99% vevy's, and if he says let's pull the plug, I am obliged to remove all his content.
I said it before publicly, and I repeat it. You are free to use my entries. Most of the information is taken/copied from first-party/public sources, so I don't claim authorship or anything. Even if I am out at any point and created "the number one CLI site on the web", I want these tools to have more exposure, not less. You don't have to have to take them off unless SYSTEM/Midas/webfork/billion ask you to! 😜

There. your path is clear and your effort is not wasted!


- Fix up some glaring bugs and flip the "live" switch.
I am the first to want it live, but going live immediately would disappoint any newcomers/causal onlookers as many good, and even essential tools are missing still.

Timetable:
>Fix
>------------Fill---------------->
>---------Improve------------->
>--------------------Go Live--------------->
>-------------------------------Fill---------->
>-----------------------------Improve------>

Wait for data on real user interest and feedback. Don't try to make it perfect.
I agree, but real users will NOT say: "Nice site, but you know what you need? A more robust filtering system based on use cases and tool types!" This is the proactive "new" idea!

And yes, don't wait till it is perfect (if ever). But don't release it in whatever condition!
Last edited by vevy on Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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vevy
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#336 Post by vevy » Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:30 pm

- No more new features originating from some "grand vision". Let the site EVOLVE from user feedback.
Go see the requests in the first post. Which suggestion do I have that are:
  • Marked high priority (2,3).
  • Not marked "postponed" (p).
Here they are. Let it not be said that vevy can't compromise! :wink:
  • Clearer edit logs. It can wait.
  • Sorting by last edited. It can wait.
  • Prioritize title matches.
  • Prioritize recent tools.
  • Sources/Developers table. Separate issue. It can probably wait.
  • Inherited "suggested by".
  • Suggest parent name in parent ID. Easy (already done), can wait.
  • Developer field. It can wait.
  • Archive Download Link field.
  • Warnings.
  • GUI Front-ends. It can wait.
  • Noob-friendliness. It can wait.
  • Changelog Link. It can wait.
  • Filter requests:
    • Reverse Boolean Filters (i.e. NOT {filter}).
    • Filterable categories. It can wait.
    • Filterable dates.
    • Clickable Individual badges./Filterable statuses (badges).
    • Split Badges from Additional status.
  • Use case requests
    • Prioritize use case matches.
    • Use cases numbers between brackets. It can wait. (Although I like it :D)
So, they whittle down to:
  • Prioritize title matches. Good user experience (UX).
  • Prioritize recent tools. Good UX.
  • Inherited "suggested by". Easy to do (already done). Saves a lot of maintenance work.
  • Archive Download Link field. Easy to do, useful to avoid future tool losses.
  • Warnings. Easy to do, helps maintenance.
  • Filter requests: Make a big database easier to navigate:
    • Reverse Boolean Filters (i.e. NOT {filter}). Easy to do.
    • Filter by date. Fairly Easy to do.
    • Clickable Individual badges./Filterable statuses (badges) Easy to do.
    • Split Badges from Additional status (In edit screen to help avoid mistakes). Easy to do.
  • Prioritize use case matches. Easy to do (my estimate).
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Andrew Lee
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#337 Post by Andrew Lee » Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:50 am

vevy wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
Andrew Lee wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:39 pm
the day SYSTEM/Midas/webfork/billion bloody _PM_ me to push me to implement your vision of filters and use cases, is the day we talk :lol:
Man, you keep moving the goal posts!
Oh, please 🤦‍♂️. I have stated countless times in so many different ways to please get the support of the community. I guess I'm just fine-tuning the message to clarify what "support of the community" means.
vevy wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
I said it before publicly, and I repeat it. You are free to use my entries. Most of the information is taken/copied from first-party/public sources, so I don't claim authorship or anything. Even if I am out at any point and created "the number one CLI site on the web", I want these tools to have more exposure, not less. You don't have to have to take them off unless SYSTEM/Midas/webfork/billion ask you to! 😜
That's interesting.. this is the first instance I remember getting this clear message from you. I might have missed something earlier.

If that is the case, I will most likely just do a round of bug squashing, remove the password protection and go live. That sounds like a plan :D

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vevy
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#338 Post by vevy » Mon Nov 02, 2020 3:04 am

Andrew Lee wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 2:50 am
vevy wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
Andrew Lee wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:39 pm
the day SYSTEM/Midas/webfork/billion bloody _PM_ me to push me to implement your vision of filters and use cases, is the day we talk :lol:
Man, you keep moving the goal posts!
Oh, please 🤦‍♂️. I have stated countless times in so many different ways to please get the support of the community. I guess I'm just fine-tuning the message to clarify what "support of the community" means.
I was (half-)joking! The real half is that I always understood the community as "the community", not necessarily mod PMs!


That's interesting.. this is the first instance I remember getting this clear message from you. I might have missed something earlier.
Last line.
If that is the case, I will most likely just do a round of bug squashing,
Great!
remove the password protection and go live. That sounds like a plan :D
Nooooo! 😲
vevy wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
I am the first to want it live, but going live immediately would disappoint any newcomers/causal onlookers as many good, and even essential tools are missing still.
Also, there are a lot of features far from presentable: "Placeholder" categories, not-yet-filled use cases, not-yet-cross-linked entries, etc.


Come on! Let it mature a little. You only get one shot at a first impression! Much of that work is not on you, just give it time.
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Midas
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#339 Post by Midas » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:01 am

Andrew Lee wrote: - Fix up some glaring bugs and flip the "live" switch. Wait for data on real user interest and feedback. Don't try to make it perfect.

- No more new features originating from some "grand vision". Let the site EVOLVE from user feedback.

I'm behind this 100%. Without meaning to disparage any of the careful consideration and work invested in the project -- chiefly by vevy and Andrew (thank you for that) -- it actually summarizes my stance on the matter from the get go...

vevy wrote: I said it before publicly, and I repeat it. You are free to use my entries. Most of the information is taken/copied from first-party/public sources, so I don't claim authorship or anything. Even if I am out at any point and created "the number one CLI site on the web", I want these tools to have more exposure, not less.

This statement settles all my worries to rest. Thank you for that, vevy.

Let's go live and see how it works, then... :thumbsup:

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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#340 Post by vevy » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:13 am

Midas wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:01 am
This statement settles all my worries to rest. Thank you for that, vevy
Man! If I knew that was what you people are worried about I would have said it much sooner!

Which is a testament to the value of being direct I guess.
Let's go live and see how it works, then... :thumbsup:
What do you think about the points I raised, then?
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#341 Post by Midas » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:34 am

vevy wrote:What do you think about the points I raised, then?

I'm not one for lengthy and detailed online negotiations. Because my offline life trumps whatever I do online, I favor succinct and straightforward solutions for clearly defined problems -- even if in the end they prove to be minuscule and beside the point in the overall scheme of things.

My position here is likewise: as founder and gatekeeper, Andrew holds the keys and final word; our right to dissent and propose different solutions rests on how aptly we are able to formulate our vision(s), as well as the community support we're able to muster for them. And that's basically it.

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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#342 Post by vevy » Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:55 am

Midas wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 6:34 am
I'm not one for lengthy and detailed online negotiations. Because my offline life trumps whatever I do online, I favor succinct and straightforward solutions for clearly defined problems -- even if in the end they prove to be minuscule and beside the point in the overall scheme of things.

My position here is likewise: as founder and gatekeeper, Andrew holds the keys and final word; our right to dissent and propose different solutions rests on how aptly we are able to formulate our vision(s), as well as the community support we're able to muster for them. And that's basically it.
Soooo, what do you think about the points I raised, then? 😛

Seriously, I am not sure what you are trying to say:

"Don't ask me, I don't like to get into the details. Go for Andrew."
or
"I like simpler things so let's go live now."?
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#343 Post by Midas » Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:27 am

vevy wrote:"Don't ask me, I don't like to get into the details. Go for Andrew."
or
"I like simpler things so let's go live now."?

All of the above. Mostly, I'm like Ronald Reagan, give me a single page memo and I will answer if you ask me a yes or no question... :twisted:

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vevy
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#344 Post by vevy » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:12 am

Midas wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:27 am
vevy wrote:"Don't ask me, I don't like to get into the details. Go for Andrew."
or
"I like simpler things so let's go live now."?

All of the above. Mostly, I'm like Ronald Reagan, give me a single page memo and I will answer if you ask me a yes or no question... :twisted:
I see, Mr. President.
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Re: CLI Database Discussions

#345 Post by vevy » Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:24 pm

Thanks for the fixes Andrew! :)

Now a couple of checkboxes from the post above and I continue while you consider the rest.

Clickable Individual badges./Filterable statuses (badges) Easy to do.
Split Badges from Additional status (In edit screen to help avoid mistakes). Easy to do.

They are spread out in the first post from #14 and below.
status.png

Thanks! 👍
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