Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inkscape

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JohnTHaller
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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#16 Post by JohnTHaller » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:08 pm

webfork wrote:As far as I can tell, that is the case. However, I'd still like to give Danix an opportunity to get the developers to consider the WinPenPack alternative. Assuming other forum members agree that official developer support is important, an endorsement either way by Inkscape should resolve this issue.
All things being equal, I'd have to ask why you'd even need to contact the developer. The developer has a portable version they are publishing. It's portable and stealth. It's supported by the developer as well as PortableApps.com. It's even smaller and has a couple extra features over the current unofficial portable build already linked to. Why would it be necessary to contact the developer to get them to give blessing to a 3rd party solution unless there is a bias favoring that package over the official one?
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Hydaral
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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#17 Post by Hydaral » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:26 pm

JohnTHaller wrote:
webfork wrote:Danix: as such, I encourage you to contact the developers (as with the RedNotebook epsisode) and ask them if they would be willing to support your software as well as the PA version they're linking to.
Unlike Rednotebook, Inkscape isn't linking to an Inkscape Portable package that PortableApps.com has created and is hosting and supporting, Inkscape is distributing Inkscape Portable themselves. It is packaged using our open source software and with our assistance, but it is Inkscape's app.
I think the important distinction between Inkscape and RedNotebook is that in RedNotebook's case it was natively portable vs PA wrapper. I think the general consensus from that topic was that the natively portable version takes precedence.

In Inkscape's case though, it's Winpenpack wrapper vs PA wrapper, IMO, at this point they are equal. What pushes the PA wrapper over the top for me, is that it is recommended/created by the developer.

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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#18 Post by rikylov » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:36 am

JohnTHaller wrote: -cutted quoting-
Why would it be necessary to contact the developer to get them to give blessing to a 3rd party solution unless there is a bias favouring that package over the official one?
Maybe because x-inkscape works a little bit safer than Inkscape Portable? :wink:
As per my habits, I tried both and my anti virus (Avira Pro) said Inkscape Portable is infected!
Now, I know is a "false positive", because after a "VirusTotal" online check I had a reassuring answer (also in the past, long time ago, I had similar feedback with another portable by PA, now I don't remember which one).
Anyway with X-inkscape I did not have this issue. This portabilization works like a charm on my 16gb stick with a lot of other portable proggies (some "X" and some "PA").

[OT]
BTW, all of You, have you ever tried X-MyPaint? http://www.winpenpack.com/en/download.php?view.1276
I love this portabilization!!!
[/OT]

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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#19 Post by webfork » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:45 am

JohnTHaller wrote:
webfork wrote:As far as I can tell, that is the case. However, I'd still like to give Danix an opportunity to get the developers to consider the WinPenPack alternative. Assuming other forum members agree that official developer support is important, an endorsement either way by Inkscape should resolve this issue.
All things being equal, I'd have to ask why you'd even need to contact the developer. The developer has a portable version they are publishing. It's portable and stealth. It's supported by the developer as well as PortableApps.com. It's even smaller and has a couple extra features over the current unofficial portable build already linked to. Why would it be necessary to contact the developer to get them to give blessing to a 3rd party solution unless there is a bias favoring that package over the official one?
  1. It doesn't follow that a developer listing the portable version of their software on their web page represents a preference.
  2. As such, waiting a little longer to get official developer feedback is diplomatic. Giving Danix an opportunity to lobby his software doesn't represent preferential treatment, and instead gives a fair shake to competing parties. You're also welcome to contact the developer and get the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval for PA's version.
  3. Similarly, Portable InkScape is not obviously superior. While true that the Chris Morgan version of software has some cool features that the WinPenPack version doesn't have, WinPenPack's version has some features his version lacks.

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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#20 Post by webfork » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:52 am

rikylov wrote:Maybe because x-inkscape works a little bit safer than Inkscape Portable? :wink:
As per my habits, I tried both and my anti virus (Avira Pro) said Inkscape Portable is infected!
Now, I know is a "false positive"
So the PA version set off some virus scanners that the Inkscape didn't? And, even though you recognize its a false positive, that somehow means WinPenPack's version is safer?

I can see where you're trying to go with this, but this line of reasoning is actually more hurtful to WinPenPack. Haller's push for software downloaded by millions makes anti-virus companies want to add his stuff to their whitelist database. The success of his program is driving down the issue of false-positives in portable software.

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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#21 Post by Danix » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:28 pm

JohnTHaller wrote:
Danix wrote:But in the winPenPack version all paths of recent files (if files are saved in \Bin\Inkscape, \User\Inkscape or \Documents\Inkscape directories) are normalized when the drive letter or the software position changes. In the PA version, the recent files list is deleted every time. In the winPenPack version all paths are normalized in preferences.xml file and the default working directory has been set to \Documents\Inkscape folder. In the PA version no paths are normalized.
That's simply untrue. Inkscape Portable being distributed by Inkscape maintains and portablizes the recent files list and automatically updates drive letters within the preferences.xml and .recently-used.xbel files just as it should.
Let me explain more in details. It's true that Inkscape Portable maintains the recent files list, and is also true that it updates the drive letter within the settings files. But, moving Portable Inkscape folder anywhere (in the same disk/stick or into another disk), your affirmation is not completely true.
You all can verify this, please see an example: supposing you have Inkscape Portable under C:\PortableApps\InkscapePortable, and already saved some files under C:\PortableApps\InkscapePortable\Data. In this case your recents are correctly shown in the Recent Files list. Now, simply move "\InkscapePortable" folder with all its underlying structure into "I:\MyApps\Portable" folder (so you will have "I:\MyApps\Portable\InkscapePortable" path). Running InkscapePortable from I:\ you can see your Recent Files list completely empty; this happens due to the fact that, changing only the drive letter within the settings files, you have InkscapePortable searching its "recents" under I:\PortableApps\InkscapePortable\Data (a non-existent folder) instead of searching it into the right path (I:\MyApps\Portable\InkscapePortable\Data).

Now apply same procedure using X-Inkscape. Copy X-Inkscape under C:\Portable Software\X-Inkscape, then save some files under the default directory C:\Portable Software\X-Inkscape\Documents\Inkscape. Recents will appear in the Recent Files list. Now, please move the X-Inkscape folder with all its underlying structure into "I:\MyApps\Portable" folder (so you will have "I:\MyApps\Portable\X-Inkscape" path). Running X-Inkscape from I:\ you will have all recents shown and accessible. This really simplify the moving procedure of the program from a hard drive to a usb stick (i.e. for carrying it anywhere you need).
Obviously, if you install InkscapePortable under any folder structure on a usb stick, and leave it's location unchanged, everything works correctly. But I think the X-Inkscape path normalization is a little bit more flexible and user friendly for normal users.

Another interesting X-Inkscape feature is that, giving the command File|Open..., the dialog shows by default the "\Documents\Inkscape" folder (i.e. the folder where the user saved all its files, also the recents), while the same dialog of Inkscape Portable shows by default the \My Documents folder, that IMHO could bring an inattentive user to save its files under \My Documents, "forgetting" them on the guest PC..

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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#22 Post by Danix » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:40 pm

JohnTHaller wrote:I took the time to download the latest X-Inkscape to be sure I had my facts straight on whether you'd copied and implemented our portablization method and environment variable (which you have, rather than your older APPDATA method). In the future, please do us the same courtesy before calling us out for lacking features we actually implement.
We never copied any method from anybody (we simply don't need to do it). This environment variable was added by Inkscape in 2009, and we used it from X-Inkscape [rev10]. You all can easily verify from our repository (link link). We have simply found this environment variable in the Inkscape official documentation (link link), as we (and you) do for dozens of other programs. We did not find anywhere this variable was introduced for an exclusive usage by PA. Our repository has always been (and still is) available to anyone wishing to consult it (as surely it has been), and we never claimed the exclusive of our methods (it could be a nonsense in an Open Source project).

A note about InkscapePortable and X-Inkscape footprints: the size difference is because InkscapePortable has an UPX compression of executables and dlls, and also "inkview.exe" executable (12 MB) is cutted away; as you can read here we decided, long time ago, to avoid UPX compression on our executables and/or libraries. This prevents most of antivirus false positives and also ensures we are distributing only "original binaries". Of course, if skilled user wants to UPX all binaries to reduce program's size, is welcome..

winPenPack project, from its origin, has always pursue a single and strict objective: to portabilize the most programs possible at best possible. Since someone does not want to understand this, we repeat again that we don't earn one single cent by this activity (whose costs are often higher than the donations), performed completely for free. We are not in competition with anyone. The only thing we can do is to try to perform as best portabilizations as possible. If this simple action is enough to bother PA or other similar project, we are very sorry for that, but we think that into a plurality of solutions the real winner is the user (as this should be). We still believe that the cooperation and the exchange of ideas is worthing more than an "Official" in the name of a program..

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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#23 Post by Danix » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:51 pm

rikylov wrote: I tried both and my anti virus (Avira Pro) said Inkscape Portable is infected!
My Avira Antivir Personal did not find any virus or false positive into Inkscape Portable.

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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#24 Post by webfork » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:12 pm

Danix wrote:A note about InkscapePortable and X-Inkscape footprints: the size difference is because InkscapePortable has an UPX compression of executables and dlls, and also "inkview.exe" executable (12 MB) is cutted away; as you can read here we decided, long time ago, to avoid UPX compression on our executables and/or libraries.
I don't think its UPX compression. X-Inkscape is drawn from a different version (0.48.2 r9819) than Inkscape Portable (0.48.1). A good part of the size difference appears to come from some additional LOCALE files, which probably means more language support. I couldn't find a changelog for the r9819 version.

As a side note, the PA version is dramatically smaller if you don't check multi-language at extract (78 megs English-only vs. 143 megs).

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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#25 Post by JohnTHaller » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:06 pm

webfork wrote:As such, waiting a little longer to get official developer feedback is diplomatic. Giving Danix an opportunity to lobby his software doesn't represent preferential treatment, and instead gives a fair shake to competing parties. You're also welcome to contact the developer and get the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval for PA's version.
That still seems a bit silly. The publisher has a portable version that they themselves package. That they make available on their download servers. And that they list on their download page as the portable version. Why do we need to go seek confirmation on that? No one has done that for any other app ever listed on PFC in the case of a publisher who already has their own portable version available. And, as you already stated:
webfork wrote:Nobody replied when I posted about this a few weeks ago so I just considered it a non-problem. I obviously have no issue.
So, why the change?
webfork wrote:I don't think its UPX compression. X-Inkscape is drawn from a different version (0.48.2 r9819) than Inkscape Portable (0.48.1). A good part of the size difference appears to come from some additional LOCALE files, which probably means more language support. I couldn't find a changelog for the r9819 version.
Inkscape Portable is at 0.48.1, which is the current supported version of Inkscape. WinPenPack jumped the gun and packaged 0.48.2 as final even though the Inkscape devs have not blessed it as final yet. Inkscape Portable 0.48.2 is also available from the Inkscape SourceForge project but is not yet listed on the Inkscape download page (because they're still at 0.48.1). 0.48.2 will add new features including additional translations when it is officially released. There is no changelog because 0.48.2 hasn't been released yet.
Last edited by JohnTHaller on Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#26 Post by JohnTHaller » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:17 pm

Danix wrote:Let me explain more in details. It's true that Inkscape Portable maintains the recent files list, and is also true that it updates the drive letter within the settings files. But, moving Portable Inkscape folder anywhere (in the same disk/stick or into another disk), your affirmation is not completely true.
I'm aware of that, but you stated quite clearly that "In the PA version, the recent files list is deleted every time." If that was an error due to English being your second language, I can understand that. Updating the relative paths is done quite easily using Chris Morgan's PortableApps.com Launcher and I should have him get the Inkscape package to be updated to use it instead of the older version.
Danix wrote:We never copied any method from anybody (we simply don't need to do it). This environment variable was added by Inkscape in 2009, and we used it from X-Inkscape [rev10].
If I recall correctly, it was Chris Morgan who added this feature in Inkscape for Inkscape Portable and had it added to the documentation. Or, at the very least, it was he who helped them add it. That's why it's named "INKSCAPE_PORTABLE_..." I figured you saw it in our configuration and used it from there. But whether you got it from us or from the docs is fine and doesn't really matter.
Danix wrote:... we decided, long time ago, to avoid UPX compression on our executables and/or libraries. This prevents most of antivirus false positives and also ensures we are distributing only "original binaries". Of course, if skilled user wants to UPX all binaries to reduce program's size, is welcome.
I think you'll find that many of your false positives also originate from your AutoIT launchers due to the fact that AutoIT is popular with malware writers. The constant false positives with it is why we banned further AutoIT apps at PortableApps.com. We don't often get false-positives with UPX compressed apps and, when we do, they are usually fixed relatively quickly. We'll be getting out apps whitelisted by default with two major antivirus vendors shortly which will further alleviate these issues.
Danix wrote:If this simple action is enough to bother PA or other similar project, we are very sorry for that, but we think that into a plurality of solutions the real winner is the user (as this should be). We still believe that the cooperation and the exchange of ideas is worthing more than an "Official" in the name of a program..
The only thing I personally have a problem with is trying to make whether X-Inkscape remains as the primary listing about 'fairness' because PortableApps.com has more listings. Inkscape Portable is the portable version distributed by Inkscape, so it should be listed first. I don't see the logic in second-guessing the publisher here and would likewise say that the main listing should be X-Inkscape if that was the version they published.
Last edited by JohnTHaller on Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#27 Post by rikylov » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:44 pm

webfork wrote:
rikylov wrote:Maybe because x-inkscape works a little bit safer than Inkscape Portable? :wink:
As per my habits, I tried both and my anti virus (Avira Pro) said Inkscape Portable is infected!
Now, I know is a "false positive"
So the PA version set off some virus scanners that the Inkscape didn't? And, even though you recognize its a false positive, that somehow means WinPenPack's version is safer?
Hi webkork,
did you not see my little smile? ;)
In fact my previous post was a "small provocation" to JTH and his "why" question.
webfork wrote:I can see where you're trying to go with this, but this line of reasoning is actually more hurtful to WinPenPack. Haller's push for software downloaded by millions makes anti-virus companies want to add his stuff to their whitelist database. The success of his program is driving down the issue of false-positives in portable software.
Right! I'm pretty sure PA is making a very good job! As you can see and read in other posts, I use both, WPP and PA proggies, so I'm not "regardless against" PA at all. I'm a "general portable" lover.
BTW, I've checked again and now Inkscake portable has no issues with my Avira (maybe whitelist in virus database is fixed now).
From my past experiences I'm aware some "false positives" are correlated to UPX compression. I had same feedback also on other natively portable proggies I used.

Last but not least, as you can see on my profile, I'm an italian user, so it's a little bit natural I generally love italian projects (as WPP is). First of all for "native localization reasons" (my english is not so good, as you can see ;) )

So, my apologies to the forum! I don't want at all to start a flame. Happy portables to everyone!

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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#28 Post by ChemZ » Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:57 am

Danix wrote:Let me explain more in details. It's true that Inkscape Portable maintains the recent files list, and is also true that it updates the drive letter within the settings files. But, moving Portable Inkscape folder anywhere (in the same disk/stick or into another disk), your affirmation is not completely true.
You all can verify this, please see an example: supposing you have Inkscape Portable under C:\PortableApps\InkscapePortable, and already saved some files under C:\PortableApps\InkscapePortable\Data. In this case your recents are correctly shown in the Recent Files list. Now, simply move "\InkscapePortable" folder with all its underlying structure into "I:\MyApps\Portable" folder (so you will have "I:\MyApps\Portable\InkscapePortable" path). Running InkscapePortable from I:\ you can see your Recent Files list completely empty; this happens due to the fact that, changing only the drive letter within the settings files, you have InkscapePortable searching its "recents" under I:\PortableApps\InkscapePortable\Data (a non-existent folder) instead of searching it into the right path (I:\MyApps\Portable\InkscapePortable\Data).
I can totally confirm that! Moving the uTorrent folder around is likely to lose you all your downloads, forcing you to re-add everything, then force-check everything. Not so nice for a novice... especially when it happens more than once, and to more than one program. :(

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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#29 Post by JohnTHaller » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:25 am

ChemZ wrote:I can totally confirm that! Moving the uTorrent folder around is likely to lose you all your downloads, forcing you to re-add everything, then force-check everything. Not so nice for a novice... especially when it happens more than once, and to more than one program. :(
That was a limitation due to the old uTorrent settings format that if you changed more than the drive letter the FileGuard bits would invalidate it and you'd lose all your settings. It seems they changed the settings recently and we should be able to handle updating in the PA.c Launcher in the next release of uTorrent Portable. Inkscape just needs to be updated to use the new launcher and I'll drop Chris Morgan a note about ensuring that's in Inkscape Portable 0.48.2 once it is released.
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Re: Switching X-Inkscape to Inkspace Portable hosted by Inks

#30 Post by zandet2 » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:26 am

Hi to everyone,
I'm zandet2, member of the winPenPack Team (and the one who made the crime to update X-Inkscape to the new release 8) ).
webfork wrote:I don't think its UPX compression. X-Inkscape is drawn from a different version (0.48.2 r9819) than Inkscape Portable (0.48.1). A good part of the size difference appears to come from some additional LOCALE files, which probably means more language support. I couldn't find a changelog for the r9819 version.
I can confirm that both the versions of PortableInkscape (0.48.1 taken from PA.s site and 0.48.2 taken from Sourceforge Inkscape page) have the dlls and executables compressed by UPX.
At the following links you can find and download the report of the comparisons, obtained with WinMerge, between X-Inkscape and PortableInKscape similar versions:
http://www.winpenpack.com/main/e107_fil ... kscape.zip

As Danilo said, the reason why we abandoned the UPX compression is because all of our false positive was generated by UPX; after that decision, no more false positive, even if our launcher is written in AutoIt (AutoIt is not devil...).
As a side note, the PA version is dramatically smaller if you don't check multi-language at extract (78 megs English-only vs. 143 megs).
About this, there can be a small misundarstanding in that procedure for non-english users: if I choose the "installation" procedure in my native language (e.g. france or german), when I choose "remove additional language" I can suppose that my native language will remain (I've choosen it before), but during the extraction all the language will be striped out, so at the and only the default english remain...

Best regards
zandet2

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